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Wednesday, July 28, 2021

A Style Of Freedom : Code Change : NPR


What is nice, y’all? That is Gene. And only a heads-up – this episode is about Juneteenth. (Laughter) I didn’t imply for that to sound like a disclaimer. Like, I used to be like, oh, conceal your youngsters; we’re about to speak about Juneteenth. Nothing like that, after all.

After we taped this episode, the U.S. Senate determined to vote to make Juneteenth a authorized federal vacation, which is an enormous deal. And had we identified that, the start of this episode can be very totally different. We might have spent the highest speaking about, you already know, what it means for one thing like Juneteenth to be “legitimized” – I am doing air quotes – “legitimized” by an establishment just like the U.S. Senate. As a result of if Juneteenth is basically a celebration of liberation and emancipation and freedom, like, it is about to get rubber-stamped by an establishment that was deeply invested in ensuring that liberation and emancipation and freedom did not occur. You understand? So these are all questions that we do not get into this episode. However we wished to let you already know that we all know that you already know that this went down and that this episode doesn’t get into that very a lot.

This episode is about Black foodways and the way Juneteenth offers us a approach to have fun these foodways. However we are going to get to these large questions one other time, simply not on this episode. All proper, on to the present.



I am Karen Grigsby Bates, sitting in for Shereen.

DEMBY: I am Gene Demby. And this, that is CODE SWITCH.



BATES: Gene, the opposite day I used to be shopping by way of the Betty Crocker web site.

DEMBY: As one does, I suppose. What?

BATES: Cease laughing. Do not ask why. And…


BATES: …I stumbled upon a 2017 article known as “Juneteenth Celebration.”

DEMBY: (Laughter) On the Betty Crocker web site? Phrase? Actually?

BATES: That very web site, sure. It begins in typical cheery Betty style, (studying) Hooray for June 19. What higher approach to have fun African American freedom and household than with a laid-back barbecue, picnic or out of doors celebration filled with soul meals favorites, outdated and new.

DEMBY: Hooray. OK. Questions, questions, questions – I’ve many.

BATES: I am going to wager you do. However quickly that actually received me excited about how meals traditions are braided into so many points of African American tradition and historical past, like, you already know, our favourite – black-eyed peas.

DEMBY: Mmm hmm. Love black-eyed peas.

BATES: And to be truthful to Ms. Crocker, she did begin out her Juneteenth menu with a bit of historical past lesson about Juneteenth.

DEMBY: I’m very curious. How did Betty and them describe this?

BATES: Effectively, they stated – and I’m studying this instantly from them – (studying) the Emancipation Proclamation successfully freed American slaves in January of 1863, although in lots of instances this incredible information didn’t attain the slaves themselves. Issues stayed as they have been in extremely Accomplice Texas specifically. It wasn’t till greater than two years later, in June of 1865, that union troopers reached the far southern city of Galveston, Texas, and took management of the state, lastly and actually releasing Texas slaves.

DEMBY: That’s not a foul synopsis. Yeah, that is just about it.

BATES: It is fairly respectable. However we are able to add extra context. So Juneteenth, June 19, 1865, was a day of nice jubilation within the now-freed inhabitants, clearly. And as we speak, 49 states and the District of Columbia, Gene, acknowledge it as an official observance or vacation.

DEMBY: You stated 49, so somebody is lacking from that quantity. Let’s put them on blast. Which state doesn’t observe Juneteenth?

BATES: Ah, speaking with a math main. You might be proper.


BATES: South Dakota. And Hawaii’s invoice nonetheless must be signed by the governor, but it surely was handed.


BATES: By the way in which, I’m curious, Gene. Did you develop up celebrating Juneteenth?

DEMBY: You understand, KGB, I did not. We had a whole lot of large Black festivals in Philly within the summertime, like Odunde, which is that this, you already know, gigantic pageant that’s actually across the nook from the home I grew up in. It is often someday within the second week of June – so like, you already know, across the time of Juneteenth – you already know, a lot of large barbecues. However I did not know Juneteenth. I did not comprehend it was a factor till, like, a lot later when my pal Erin (ph), who’s from Dallas, informed me that she had grew up celebrating Juneteenth. However how about you?

BATES: I did not. As you already know, I grew up in Connecticut. In actual fact, I do not assume I even actually discovered about Juneteenth celebrations till I used to be in school – once more, such as you, with associates from Texas.

DEMBY: Proper.

BATES: My household did observe New Yr’s Day, which we’ll discuss a bit of bit extra later. Now a complete lot of firms are acknowledging Juneteenth, Gene. Amazon inspired staff to cancel all conferences and take part in a, quote, “a variety of on-line studying alternatives” supplied by the corporate.

DEMBY: Mmm hmm.

BATES: Musing over that. Nike declared Juneteenth an annual firm vacation for its staff. All its U.S. shops can be closed. And our very personal firm, NPR, did the identical final 12 months and can once more this 12 months.

DEMBY: All proper. So I imply, Nike, Amazon – you already know, two gigantic firms which have had, to illustrate – how do we are saying this? – spotty…

BATES: (Laughter).

DEMBY: …Observe information because it pertains to labor and compensation. It is simply very form of – I need to say – it is simply type – it is a bit of wealthy. I do not know the way we’re presupposed to really feel about this. And that is June, and we’re additionally having conversations about Delight. Proper? And there is a whole lot of conversations that sound like this – proper? – about what the company embrace of Delight does to all these celebrations.

BATES: Precisely. And as Juneteenth has broadened, Gene, I’ve begun questioning if it is getting diluted by its very reputation. Like, if everyone is into it – everyone – does its unique which means simply get misplaced? I wished to seek out out extra, so I began wanting round for specialists and located one. I sat down with writer and meals historian Rafia Zafar of Washington College in St. Louis. Rafia wrote a e book known as “Recipes For Respect: African American Meals And Which means.”


BATES: It appears to me up to now couple of years anyway, that Juneteenth has form of changed into, like…

RAFIA ZAFAR: It is a factor.

BATES: …The Black equal of Cinco de Mayo. You understand…

ZAFAR: Yeah.

BATES: …Everyone goes out and has a Juneteenth lunch…

ZAFAR: Yeah, mmm hmm.

BATES: …Or a Juneteenth weekend. Nevertheless it’s not concerning the historical past that surrounds the meals and possibly even birthed the meals.

ZAFAR: Yeah.

BATES: It is extra about having a great time, you already know, having fun with your self, consuming, consuming, being with your folks. Are you frightened that Juneteenth itself may get form of deracinated into be one other good-time day?

ZAFAR: Yeah. Effectively, you already know what’s attention-grabbing? I used to be really – after all, I used to be studying extra about Juneteenth as a result of I knew we’d be speaking. And apparently, within the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, African American newspapers, a number of the journalists, have been even saying, all individuals are doing is, like, partying and consuming purple stuff (ph). I imply, so this type of…

BATES: There’s hen bones on the lot (ph).

ZAFAR: Yeah, precisely. Proper? After which the white people are going to return and take a look at us. Proper? And it is like – consider Zora Neale Hurston – my folks, my folks; my race, however not my style; my pores and skin people, however not my kinfolks. Proper? (Laughter). However Juneteenth was, you already know, from June 19, 1865, Common Granger, I feel, in Galveston was – you already know, he had three authorities orders. And one in all them was Southerners – you already know Texans, Louisianans, you guys haven’t freed slaves. However really, January 1, 1863, was Emancipation Day. So that you all are, like, 2 1/2 years late, and individuals are free. And you need to rent them, not anticipate them to work free of charge.

So it – Juneteenth was within the midst or, say, amid the Reconstruction interval. That was very a lot in folks’s minds. They knew precisely what Juneteenth was about. Proper? Nevertheless it’s like a whole lot of holi (ph) – consider Memorial Day. Proper? You understand, Juneteenth, is that going to be one thing – I do not know – whether or not when – I do not know – kitchen home equipment are on sale each Juneteenth? Or I – do not know – sneakers or…

BATES: Yeah. It is a actually totally different factor from, say, watch service on New Yr’s Eve…

ZAFAR: Sure.

BATES: …The place folks would go to church and wait till it is January 1 to have the ability to acknowledge this was the day our ancestors have been freed.

ZAFAR: Precisely, precisely. I imply, watch night time – was it, I feel, Frederick Douglass was sitting up like everybody else saying, is that this actually going to occur? President Lincoln stated it was going to occur. Is that this actually going to occur? And it did. So it turns into folded in, not simply to the Methodist church, however to many church buildings that you simply keep up. It is that custom that will get layered not simply with the spiritual significance, however with a political and a cultural significance. So folks nonetheless have watch night time providers. However they’ve maybe fallen away, like Juneteenth, from form of the political form of antecedents or the political valence that was grafted onto what was, say, largely a spiritual or a cultural establishment. Juneteenth is a Texas vacation, a Black Texas vacation. You understand, migration introduced it as much as folks. It waxed and waned.

However Emancipation Day was New Yr’s Day was the vacation – why everyone visits on New Yr’s Day, like, the significance of with the ability to go to, to have the ability – the significance of truly having your loved ones round you as a result of throughout…

BATES: Having company over your personal physique.

ZAFAR: Precisely – as a result of throughout this – throughout slavery, the interval of enslavement, January 1 was Hiring Day. Proper? So your husband may very well be employed out on some plantation the place you would not see him once more. Perhaps, for those who have been fortunate, you may see him for a 12 months. It may be the day that folks have been bought. It really was often known as Heartbreak Day as a result of that was the day your sweetheart, your sister, your mom, folks may very well be torn from you legally, and then you definitely may or won’t ever see them once more. So New Yr’s Day, as a day of seeing household and associates, was its personal commemoration of Black freedom, despite the fact that, once more, it is like how the antecedents of holidays get diluted and form of forgotten. However that is actually what New Yr’s Day visiting is all about. I imply, it’s Hoppin’ John – proper? – you are consuming black-eyed peas and rice for good luck, having collard greens so you’ve cash. Nevertheless it’s a vacation for simply – you already know, nowadays – proper? – you placed on a Crock-Pot of black-eyed peas, and you’ve got your rice cooker going. And you are going to have folks fold them collectively, and you’ve got a scorching sauce. Nevertheless it’s that skill to be with people who was not assured.

BATES: So there’s meals tradition. There’s emancipation. What does Black meals tradition need to do with emancipation? What is the relationship?

ZAFAR: Effectively, I imply, once more, I feel typically of January 1 – Proper? – as a result of – and the custom of us celebrating New Yr’s Day, with the ability to present meals to people who find themselves dropping in – proper? – welcoming folks. That is saying quite a bit. Proper? And you employ conventional meals. They signify enslavement. They signify the South. They signify African diasporic foodways. I imply, black-eyed peas are African. Collards could also be – I feel they’re from Europe initially, the cabbage household. However they’re, like, 200 totally different sorts of greens, so that they have been a type of inexperienced that folks of African descent form of took on, like, hey, these are our greens. However the concept that there are specific meals that you could have fun since you possibly can have a whole lot of them – possibly you do not – possibly while you make your collard greens throughout enslavement, you may solely use, like, a bit of scrap. Proper? However throughout freedom, you may put in a pig knuckle. Perhaps you may even put in a pleasant juicy hambone left over from the smoked ham. Proper? So it is conventional meals that then grow to be and actually enriched – proper? – by the addition of components you won’t have had entry to, however enriched by the notion that you could provide second or third helpings. Proper?

BATES: The abundance is the posh.

ZAFAR: The abundance. The abundance itself is a luxurious.


DEMBY: All proper. So this isn’t the purpose of this interview, Karen. However all this speak is making me actual hungry. I need to prepare dinner one thing.

BATES: (Laughter).

DEMBY: I imply, I will simply hop off the podcast actual fast and make that occur.

BATES: Save me a bowl of black-eyed peas, please? And there is much more that’ll get you within the temper to prepare dinner coming quickly.

DEMBY: Stick with us, y’all.


DEMBY: Gene.

BATES: Karen.

DEMBY: CODE SWITCH. And Karen, we’re again with extra of your speak with the meals historian Rafia Zafar.

BATES: That is proper. And if you already know something concerning the meals of Juneteenth, there’s in all probability one very particular query you need answered, Gene. I do know I did.

ZAFAR: Why is everybody consuming purple soda…

BATES: Proper.

ZAFAR: …Or pink lemonade? Or what is that this purple factor occurring with Juneteenth? I imply, barbecue you possibly can type of get. Proper, OK – barbecue, Texas. OK. However what’s with the purple? Effectively, there selection (ph). Now, some folks say it is as a result of in spiritual follow, they are saying in – among the many Yoruba folks, for one, like of varied cultural and ethnic teams, purple was – had religious significance in ceremonies. So purple has this optimistic which means to it. So in case you have a purple drink, it is, you already know, propitious. It is luck. Different folks say how the kola nut, as in Coca-Cola, however kola nuts may very well be used to maintain the water from being bitter-tasting, so it was used. However – effectively, there are totally different varieties, I suppose. So there have been purple ones. After which for those who crush these, they tint the drink form of a pink-red, so that they assume it may very well be from kola nuts. However there’s additionally hibiscus. For these of us who’re Pink Zinger drinkers – like Celestial Seasonings or people who find themselves from Jamaica.

BATES: The Caribbean, yeah.

ZAFAR: Proper, Jamaica, the drink you get in Mexican eating places, that is from hibiscus. Hibiscus, like kola, is indigenous to Africa, to the continent. And that additionally comes up purple while you make a drink out of it. So there are a number. You understand, so folks say, effectively, it is from, you already know, spiritual practices. It is from, you already know, botanical ancestry. Some folks even have stated, effectively, it additionally represents the sacrifice, the blood…

BATES: The blood of the ancestors, yeah.

ZAFAR: …That was shed of our ancestors.

BATES: Yeah.

ZAFAR: Yeah.

BATES: Oh, thanks for that as a result of I’ve questioned for a lot of, a few years. And it is not answered by seeing large jugs of, like, Massive Pink…

ZAFAR: Yeah (laughter).

BATES: …On the grocery retailer cabinets, which…

ZAFAR: I do know.

BATES: …In case you’ve by no means drunk it, I might not advise it.


BATES: You understand, one of many issues I used to be excited about in studying your e book was that – the form of dilemma that folks – cooks had throughout slavery…

ZAFAR: Mmm hmm.

BATES: …That they are making these meticulous dishes that they are forbidden to eat.

ZAFAR: Sure.

BATES: However they’ll style it to ensure…

ZAFAR: Sure.

BATES: …That it meets the grasp’s or the mistress’s specs. However they are not allowed to truly sit down and have a dish of their very own.

ZAFAR: Harriet Jacobs information that – you already know, folks spitting within the pots in order that the individuals who have been pressured to work with them could not even eat the meals or share the meals as a result of…

BATES: Relatively than…

ZAFAR: …They’d be so repulsed by it.

BATES: Yeah. Relatively than – they’d reasonably waste it than enable…

ZAFAR: Than share it.

BATES: …Those that they contemplate beneath them to benefit from the leftovers.

ZAFAR: Yeah.

BATES: So there’s that. I am considering instantly after emancipation, you may eat what you need, however you did not have any cash to principally purchase the stuff you wanted. So that you have been possibly tasting freedom as a result of this was your little patch of earth or what you may pull up, and also you have been consuming a whole lot of what we’d name now, I suppose, foraged supplies…

ZAFAR: Ay (ph).

BATES: …Not essentially cultivating supplies.

ZAFAR: That is why I am a George Washington Carver fan.

BATES: (Laughter) Sure.

ZAFAR: I imply, I am a Carver girl. Like, yay, George Washington Carver was speaking about gleaning and composting lengthy earlier than it was a family phrase.

BATES: He was forward of his time.

ZAFAR: Yeah, yeah.

BATES: So after I consider the story of what Black folks have eaten on this continent by way of this century, you already know, by way of this – by way of our historical past, what we have been allowed to eat, what we might bodily eat, it looks like that is carefully tied to our standing, our altering standing as People.

ZAFAR: Mmm hmm. However what’s attention-grabbing, it is like, you already know – that usually that what we needed to eat finally ends up being what we crave. Proper? The meals of poverty is what folks, like – you already know, that turns into our consolation meals. Proper? I imply, so possibly individuals who needn’t purchase pickles and purple Kool-Assist nonetheless eat it. In case you ever been in Atlanta, there’s that chain known as This Is It. It is a fast-food place that has chitlins and offal – proper? – O-F-F-A-L.

BATES: Each senses of the phrase (laughter).

ZAFAR: I examine it within the Occasions possibly 15 years in the past, and I minimize it out. And I inform my college students about it as a result of the reporter described seeing folks drive up in Mercedes and, you already know, they’re medical doctors, they’re attorneys, they’re, you already know, company employees. And it is as a result of their households don’t desire the scent of chitlins. They do not need pig ft. They only reject them. Nevertheless it’s what they – you already know, it is like typically you simply need – effectively, for those who’re in St. Louis, typically you simply desire a barbecued snoot.

BATES: Cookbooks. I need to ask you about cookbooks earlier than we left as a result of…

ZAFAR: Yeah.

BATES: …You do – you’ve some originals. I’ve these cookbooks, too.

ZAFAR: You do. I do know.

BATES: I do.

ZAFAR: Yeah.

BATES: So I’ve a whole lot of cookbooks. I used to be blissful to listen to that you simply really feel like cookbooks do not essentially need to be cooked from, however possibly learn, like novels or…

ZAFAR: Learn like…

BATES: …Anthropological treatises.

ZAFAR: Historical past – they’re histories.

BATES: That is true.

ZAFAR: They’re memoirs. I imply, Vertamae’s a memoir, proper? I imply, it is a memoir with recipes. So she was doing that earlier than the entire vogue. Proper. As we are saying in literary research, it was a bricolage with a number of genres. Proper? It was epistolary. It was autobiographical. It was a cookbook, which is now – cookbooks are – have a Library of Congress classification as a style now. You understand, some cookbooks are actually to prepare dinner from. Some cookbooks are to get concepts from.

BATES: So that you point out in your e book a lady who has written a cookbook who could be very particular to say that she is the mom of 11 kids. She not solely birthed them, however raised them. Why was it vital? Why do you guess it was vital to her to inform us this? And in addition, how common was that to have 11 kids and be capable of increase all of them for those who have been Black and feminine in that interval?

ZAFAR: In case you have been white and feminine – the toddler mortality within the nineteenth century, no matter whether or not you have been white or Black, was extraordinarily excessive. For African American ladies who have been held captive, who have been enslaved, it isn’t only a query of your kids surviving; it is have been you capable of see them? Proper? Earlier we have been speaking concerning the significance of of January 1. Proper? These may very well be the times the place that may very well be the final time you see your 12-year-old as a result of he is being employed out or your 14-year-old is fairly, and she or he’s being despatched down the river – proper? – to be working as a intercourse employee in one of many New Orleans bordellos. Proper? So these are very unhappy.

However so – Abby Fisher, it is type of a humble brag. She talks about making basically toddler components, and she or he says, I’ve – I do know that is good as a result of I’ve birthed 11 kids and raised all of them. And that is the factor that actually caught with me. What number of enslaved ladies and even ladies, say, who have been free Blacks might say that they raised all of their kids? That is saying one thing. You understand, it is the story behind a narrative. Did that imply she was a popular slave? Did it imply she actually possibly had been freed as a younger girl? What sort of – you already know, like, unbelievable luck that was, that you may have – give beginning to 11 kids and see each one in all them develop up, at the very least till what was seen as kind of maturity, teenage years. That is type of an – it is unbelievable. So it is saying not solely is she an excellent duper prepare dinner and she or he is aware of what she’s doing, however she’s additionally this excellent mom, and she or he takes pleasure in being a mom and in elevating – with the ability to increase your kids as a Black girl. So she’s saying this within the, you already know, within the recon (ph) – you already know, in late nineteenth century is fairly incredible.


BATES: So what do you assume we ought to remove as we possibly dip right into a cookbook or two over this weekend, if that is going to be our Juneteenth exercise? What will we find out about African People by way of these books that we’d not have identified earlier than?

ZAFAR: Effectively, it relies upon. Proper? I feel a whole lot of us knew, I feel folks, the form of the the richness, the depth of the love, the depth of dedication to at least one one other, the depth of dedication to constructing group. And it isn’t nearly surviving. It is about survivance – proper? – the Native American time period. Nevertheless it’s about persistence. It is about loving and laughing and maintaining collectively round a plate. Proper? And a few of these plates signify the previous, and a few of them are new. After which in all probability as we speak these two strands – (unintelligible) – are we certain which is from which proper? Like, the place are these explicit dishes coming from? However I feel dishes really inform us a lot about tons of of years of historical past and persistence and – I do not know – simply the enjoyment – over all of it, simply the enjoyment of being collectively.


BATES: That was writer and meals historian Rafia Zafar. However that’s not the tip of our present, at the very least not fairly but. Gene, in any case this discuss meals, I did not assume it was proper to depart you or listeners with out an precise recipe.

DEMBY: I’m enthusiastic about this ‘trigger I used to be very hungry. I used to be like, OK, that is all too summary. Inform me concerning the meals itself. I would like precise black-eyed peas in precise pots, et cetera.

BATES: All proper. Effectively, for this, we had no selection however to speak to a Texan. So let me introduce you, Gene, to…

CHRISTOPHER WILLIAMS: Christopher Williams. I am the chef and proprietor of Lucille’s restaurant and the founding father of Lucille’s 1913, which is our nonprofit, which so far has served up over 280,000 meals to these in want from Harris and Fort Bend County.

BATES: That final half is related as a result of for Chris, Juneteenth was by no means only a celebration within the conventional sense.

WILLIAMS: Juneteenth for us, similar to most holidays – and that is, I suppose, actually ingrained in our familial method – is only a day of service. So it wasn’t a day for us to exit and have a celebration within the park or no matter. It was a day for us to go serve our group.

BATES: Christopher shared with us a recipe for watermelon salad, which he says incorporates the colour purple, just like the soda water that we have been speaking about earlier, to characterize the blood that was shed by our ancestors. So to make this salad…

WILLIAMS: You are going to take that fresh-cut watermelon, and you are going to throw it within the mixing bowl. And you are going to add the newborn arugula and the thinly sliced purple onions. We prefer to have them iced down in ice water as a result of it takes a bit of little bit of that pungency off of them and retains them good and crisp. So throw these in there as a lot as you need. I am an enormous arugula fan. After which you are going to take your French dressing, which might both be a strawberry-jalapeno French dressing made with a bit of little bit of rice wine vinegar, olive oil, contemporary strawberries and jalapenos. In case you prefer it a bit of bit spicier, simply use one serrano, a bit of little bit of salt. Mix that up. After which you are going to simply pour that over the salad, toss it. You are going to current it within the bowl, and you’ll prime it off both with goat cheese or feta cheese. After which for a bit of crunch issue, we add honey roasted pistachios. And you may take pleasure in.

DEMBY: That sounds actually good. I imply, like, actually, actually good. I might forego onions ‘trigger you already know, Karen, I do not mess with onions in any respect – in any respect. However that sounds actually, actually good.

BATES: You are proper, Gene. It is scrumptious. I really made it and had it for breakfast as we speak with out the onions ‘trigger I could not discover them this morning.

DEMBY: However you had the honey roasted pistachios on (unintelligible)?

BATES: I type of rifted. I had some chunks of almonds, so I toasted them and drizzled them with a bit of little bit of honey and a bit of little bit of cayenne to make them spicy. And I tossed them in there. So I had the crunch and the cream of the feta and the form of deep deliciousness of the watermelon and the peppery spiciness of the arugula and with the strawberry French dressing form of pulling all of it collectively. I appreciated it a lot, Gene, I will have it for lunch, too (laughter).

DEMBY: (Laughter) I am not mad at that. I would like some now. Save me some.

BATES: I am going to commerce for a bowl of black-eyed peas.


DEMBY: All proper. That’s our present. Our friends have been Rafia Zafar. She’s a historian at Washington College in St. Louis and the writer of “Recipes For Respect.” Christopher Williams isn’t the singer, however the chef and proprietor of Lucille’s restaurant in Houston. You’ll be able to learn extra about him on our weblog later this week. And remember to subscribe to our publication and comply with us on social media. We’re @NPRCodeSwitch. Observe me at @GeeDee215 and KGB @KarenBates – all one phrase.

BATES: This episode was produced by Brianna Scott and Summer time Thomad and edited by Leah Donnella. There may be unique episode paintings by LA Johnson. Particular because of Andrea Henderson, a reporter at St. Louis Public Radio and our very favourite Texan, for connecting us to chef Chris. And a shout-out to the remainder of the CODE SWITCH group – Jess Kung, Alyssa Jeong Perry, Kumari Devarajan, Natalie Escobar, Steve Drummond and Sam Yellowhorse Kesler. Our intern is Carmen Molina Acosta. Shereen can be again quickly.

I am Karen Grigsby Bates.

DEMBY: And I am Gene Demby. Be straightforward, y’all. And blissful Juneteenth.

BATES: Glad Juneteenth, Gene. See ya.


SHEREEN MARISOL MERAJI, BYLINE: Hey, hey. It is Shereen popping in to inform you what we have got coming quickly on CODE SWITCH.

In case you’re the lightest shade of brown…

MARIA GARCIA: I acquired compliments from my household for my mild pores and skin.

MERAJI: …Is it cool to name your self an individual of coloration?

GARCIA: It doesn’t really feel proper for me to determine as a lady of coloration.

MARIA HINOJOSA: I completely need to personal my house as a lady of coloration, as a feminist girl of coloration. I am going to go even additional.

MERAJI: Within the subsequent installment in our sequence of conversations about Latina, Latino, Latinx, Latine id….

HINOJOSA: I do not use Hispanic.

MERAJI: I speak with Maria Hinojosa, the host of “Latino USA,” and Maria Garcia, the host of the “Something For Selena” podcast. They’re each immigrants from Mexico who’ve each thought of the way in which their lighter pores and skin coloration performs a job in how they select to determine.

GARCIA: I am unable to deny that whiteness has favored me.

MERAJI: That is coming quickly. And in case you missed it, hearken to the kick-off episode of our Latinidad sequence, my dialog with The Child Mero.


THE KID MERO: My mother pulled me out of public college, put me in a Catholic college there was a whole lot of Irish youngsters in.


THE KID MERO: And so they was like, yo, you are Black. That is very complicated to, like, a 7-year-old. Like, sure. However then it is like, I am additionally Dominican. I converse Spanish.


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